Standards are great when you want a standard product. Way to wage war on innovation Steve Jobs.
April 29, 2010First off, did anyone ever think that getting the Flash plug-in was hard to do? Or that Flash was stopping progress. No one thought that until Apple manufactured this issue. Think about it, why are the iPhone and iPad the only devices in the universe that have a problem here? It’s clear, the issue isn’t Flash.
Open standards are great. Until you want to do something open standards doesn’t support. I guess you can lobby a committee to update the standards and wait twelve years for them to change something. Adobe listens and responds to the community. Their product lifecycle is in response to the developers desire to advance what can be done. Every major version of Flash made innovation more accessible.
Flash is a better tool which is obvious to anyone who has experience, but banning the point of origin of your code has nothing to do with open standards and HTML5. Steve Job’s is using this to mask the real story. This is about controlling the development community.
What is the real story? Apple created WebKit. Something they are advocating everyone use. So they say don’t use Flash, use this thing we made instead. The altruistic open standards argument is a joke. There’s market share to be gained and that’s what the problem with Flash is. They want innovative developers to use tools that cater to Macs operating system so they won’t be creating things that work well on all systems.
And since Apple refuses to work with Abode when in comes to their closed operating system, it’s no wonder there are performance issues. This is Apple again manufacturing issues.
The security probelm? Here are two articles about Symantec retracting their statements about the Flash player:http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146396/symantec_backtracks_on_adobe_flash_warning.html
The problems with HTML5 is that it’s not cross browser compliant, it not an actual specification yet (still a draft), and has no advanced authoring environment like Flash that was forged through years of understanding developers needs. HTML5 will never do as much as Flash can or as easily.
I will not be swayed by Apple’s greed or deception. The market decided to make Flash what it is. Steve Jobs is doing nothing more than trying to manipulate what people have organically chosen. And if the market moves towards HTML5 in a natural way, then fine. But we don’t need to be told what to think.
Even if Apple wanted to put Flash in, they couldn’t. There is no shipping Flash Player for any smart phone. This is something you will never see any Adobe employee admitting in any of their beta demo videos.
It was announced in 2008, for 2009, and it won’t be coming before the 2nd 1/2 of 2010.
But it is coming. And distribution is as easy as a software update.
Flash constantly crashes Firefox and Chrome, and is usually the culprit when my computer slows to a crawl, whether it’s in the browser or AIR.
I hear it’s worse on Macs.
Why would I want that on my phone, which has far less processor, RAM and battery to spare?
If Adobe rebuilt Flash to fix its problems, then it might work on phones. But not until that happens.
And I say that as a Flash developer and designer.
My experience is different. I haven’t seen Flash crash anymore than with any other Web technology. That’s a developer education problem. I can write Flash code that is cleanly executed and doesn’t kill the processor. It’s not terribly difficult if you know to do it.
So all the bad Flash coders become bad HTML5 coders. Then what?
There are other tools that do a better job of preventing developers from writing bad code, and there are other languages that do a better job of not being tolerant of bad code. Adobe has a lot of room for improvement in both areas. AS3 was a step forward, but not enough of one.
Adobe can’t force people to become better at writing actionscript. But it CAN make its tools and plug ins do a better job of handling bad actionscript. That should be it’s number one priority.
On a tangent, from what I’ve seen a bad HTML5 coder isn’t going to destroy your browsing experience, just the page you’re looking at.
I’m a die hard Mac advocate. I freakin love Apple Hardware and OS. However I’m so freakin irritated Apple can’t play nice with Adobe. I think most of the conflict just comes from Apple wanting to control what applications we use on the iphone. If Apple works with Adobe and produces a running Flash app. Then people will just create apps and put then on their own websites, and cut Apple out of the revenue stream of iphone apps. With a fullscreen flash app it will be just like having an app purchased from the app store, but without Apple making a dime… If your argument is that Flash needs work and that it doesn’t run well on iphone, runs down batteries, crashes browsers etc. Then come out and tell the world, we fully support Adobe’s initiative and we’re working hard to get Flash to run on our iphones and iPads, we’re addressing security and stabilzation issues and once those are resolved we’ll be launching Flash on the iphone/ipad….But instead they start pointing out all the reasons they don’t want Flash, and yet it’s like a pink elephant in the room Apple wants you to ignore. They say iPads are the perfect product to sit on the couch and surf the web… What a lie. It’s not perfect at all. Because there are so many websites using Flash. I was also thinking, if Apple wants to get revenue streams from Flash dev. Maybe they should just put a security key in the web browser on the iphone/ipad and then make the browser call that key for proof of purchase and then let it run. Some security keys they give out free, like CNN or whatever. But other apps like some bowling game or something, won’t run in the browser without the user having purchased the key. And then Apple could just deny a key to applications that are poorly written and won’t run well….Long story longer, I think to just say, hey everyone just change… is completely moronic. And I really hope that Apple stops biting the hands that feed it. Because many of us hard core Adobe users buy their products because they work..The only other thought I had was perhaps Apple did say they wanted to support Adobe’s Flash, but then when it came down to it, Adobe was so HOT to get CS5 out the door, before Flash was fully fixed to run well on iphone, maybe Apple said fine, we just won’t support it. Hold back the release of CS5 until it ready, or we’ll move on without you…Hmmm. Either way it sucks
Apple has always maintained the line that Flash wouldn’t be on the iPhone. I seem to recall they worked with Adobe on it at first, but after a few months pulled the plug. Adobe made the decision to try and force their way onto the iPhone without Apple’s permission, and now they’re paying the price for that.
There isn’t one reason for this. There are many reasons, some business, some technical. But the bottom line is that it’s Apple’s device. They don’t owe it to anyone to let people put their technology on it, any more than the people that make my toaster owe it to me to make it also bake pies. If I want to bake pies, I’ll buy an oven, not complain that they shouldn’t have made a toaster.
There is no justification on the technical side, seriously that’s a lie:
http://www.streaminglearningcenter.com/articles/flash-player-cpu-hog-or-hot-tamale-it-depends-.html
The only thing that test tested was video. It doesn’t speak to the other technical issues:
- Flash still causes the majority of crashes on Macs, no reason to assume that wouldn’t be true of iPhones too.
- Flash still sucks up huge amounts of RAM and processor for things other than video, for Mac and Windows. There’s no evidence that would suddenly stop being true on an iPhone (in fact there is evidence to the contrary).
- Flash content that uses mouse interactions still needs to be rewritten to handle touch screens. I write Flash apps for touchscreens, it’s very much a different thing than doing it for a mouse.
- Flash (and any other non-objective C platform) will always be less efficient than native code. For devices optimized to the core, that’s a significant issue.
- Flash (and any other non-objective C platform) won’t survive Apple switching processors, as they are likely to do. It would be a nightmare to have thousands of apps not work every time the release a new device, not to mention having to have two versions of each app, one for the old processor and one for the new one.
There are many, many, many valid technical reasons not to have Flash on an iPhone. There are counter points to some of them, but ultimately why argue about it?
Flash is a great tool for desktops. That’s what it was made for. iPhones and iPads are not desktops. Use different tools for them.
- Does Flash cause a majority of crashes on Macs? Where are your numbers?
- Here are some benchmarks that show Flash running better than HTML5 for things other than video:
http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2010/03/22/
- Touch mean you use Click and not MouseOver, but Flash could add addition event handlers.
- In a computing era that is allowing for more cross channeling, I think enforcing restriction is bad.
- I don’t understand how switching processors means they couldn’t get Flash to work along with it.
- The other uses of Flash are somewhat minor in concern. Video seems to be THE technical concern. And the technical problems are the ones Apple has created for itself.
Flash may not be a the best tool for mobile. But Steve Jobs is calling for the end of Flash all together.
Where does Steve call for the end of all Flash? I only see him saying he doesn’t want it on iPhones.
- Apple is the one reporting Flash causing crashes, but it is a widely accepted claim.
- As we both agree, a highly optimized swf will not suck up huge amounts of processor and RAM. No one (sane) doubts that. The issue is most swfs are not even a little optimized. So long as that’s true, it’s a valid reason to keep Flash off of low-power, low-RAM, slow processor devices.
- the touch interface issue isn’t an issue with event handlers, it’s with the workflow of the swfs themselves. A app/site designed around tracking mouse movements and hover states just isn’t going to work right on a touch screen no matter what.
- you might think restricting platforms is bad, that doesn’t make it an invalid reason to restrict them.
- the same reason your copy of Photoshop for PowerPC couldn’t be installed on a new Mac with an Intel chip.
- the entire web is moving away from Flash for video with HTML5.
As for Apple creating problems for itself, I don’t think it’s created any problems. It’s their right to allow access to whatever they want. If that means Flash doesn’t work, that’s not *Apple’s* problem, any more than it’s Microsoft’s problem that you can’t run Linux apps on Windows.
Steve Jobs – “The avalanche of media outlets offering their content for Apple’s mobile devices demonstrates that Flash is no longer necessary to watch video or consume any kind of web content”
http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
No longer necessary != the end of Flash.
So if you were an employee and I told you that you are no longer necessary that would mean the end of you at that company. Saying something is no longer necessary means please take it away we don’t want it anymore. I may not agree with some of your points, but there is absolutely no possible way whatsoever Steve Jobs and Apple is not calling for the end of flash.
He says right there Flash is great for desktops.
You must be inferring different things than I am. What I see is a statement that Flash isn’t suited for mobile devices, not a statement that Flash should go away.
I’m seriously considering dropping Apple all together. This is about business. That’s all, nothing else. I’m soooo confused why if CS5 has a compiler that compiles your Flash into Objective C, does Apple not like that? Why should Apple care how it became an app? I mean reject the app because of performance issues. Fine I totally agree with that. Frankly there are people out there that have no business building apps. But to blanket say anything developed with a third party application that was recompiled to meet our specifications is no longer allowed…Well that’s just slapping me in the face. Hey Flash guy, sorry don’t develop for iPhone users… It’s only a matter of time before Safari will stop shipping with support for the Flash plug-in… Sooo irritating. And yet moving to my Dell full-time to try to run Windows is terrifying. Perhaps I give Fedora a try? I also wish they’d come out with a program to exchange your iPhone for a DROID INCREDIBLE. I’d do it…
Blocking 3rd party code has irritated a lot more people than just the Flash community. The FTC is looking into it: http://mashable.com/2010/05/03/apple-antitrust-flash-ban/
Thank you people for keeping the discussion from degenerating into a mudslinging match. It’s been really difficult to find/have any serious discussions regarding the issue of Flash and it’s place on Apple’s iPhone OS.
That being said, I’d like to add some back history to all of this. During Apple’s most recent low (90′s), They were in the process of switching from the Motorola series of processors to the (then) new PowerPC processors. Many application developers (Adobe included) utilized a third-party middleware product called CodeWarrior by Metroworks to port their MPW code to the Obj C code that the PowerPC processor ran on.
As time moved on, Apple became more and more hamstrung by the inability and/or unwillingness of Metroworks to keep their conversion tools current with Apple’s Mac OS and specifically many of the unique API’s that were available only on the Macintosh. Metroworks would delay adding new Apple API’s to the toolkit for months or even years. Sometimes waiting until a Windows equivalent was available so that developers could “write once, deploy everywhere”. This almost completely eroding Apples ability to innovate at their own pace and make unique products that were different from the Windows homogeneity. A fact that almost cost Apple their livelihood.
Fast forward to 2007. Apple releases of a new OS on a popular device that they create which is promptly copied by everyone.
Adobe begins to sing the praises of Flash as a universal development tool for Apple’s iPhone OS as well as Android. Any of this beginning to sound familiar…?
Apple would be crazy to again allow a third party development tool to control their ability to develop their own OS at their own pace.
Controlling? Yes. “Walled Garden”? Yes. But Apple is controlling their OWN platform. Much as Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, Atari and countless others have before them. They are not forcing anyone to use their platform or develop for their platform.
As a last thought; I would argue that Apple is no more “controlling the internet” than Starbucks controls coffee production and consumption.
Keep up the dialog, folks!
True, Apple doesn’t HAVE to do anything. There are valid points on both ends of the argument. But average consumers don’t care about the arguments though. They are just irritated Flash isn’t supported.
I was at a family function not long ago, where a group of non industry people were complaining about Flash not being on their iPods. It was very interesting to hear.
I’ve never heard anyone complain about not having Flash on their iPhone/iPad, and I’d say around half the people I know with smartphones have iPhones.
Who where these people, and what kind of flash stuff were they missing?
If it turns out they all wanted to play Farmville, it doesn’t count.
Who are these people? Really. My in-laws and their family. Matt and Maggie Fogarty and Chris Wooldridge. They said it sucks that you can’t get Flash on their iPhones.
I guess that could of been an isolated incident, but this argument has been made before. If they go to Hulu.com, it says Flash isn’t supported and they think, wow that sucks, Flash isn’t supported. What is so incredulous about that?
Whoa, relax. No one’s being incredulous.
I actually wanted to know who these people are. “I talked to some people” could mean anything.
I was also honestly curious what they were doing that made it an issue. Hulu is a good example of something regular people might miss on their iDevice.
About half the people I know with smartphones have iPhones, none have ever even mentioned Flash being missing. Since I’ve never heard anyone complain about it outside of Android owners or Flash developers, I wanted to know more.
Okay, relaxing.
I actually was a bit shocked to here the word Flash come out of people who are outside the dev community.
Actually, I believe Hulu is not supported on ANY mobile device. They block mobile web browsers so the Flash issue for iDevices is moot ( for now…).
Flash hater.
For me when I go to the UFC site, the feature section is a Flash embed. And when I go to view my blog stats on WordPress, those are in Flash. Both won’t work on my iPhone. So those are my “consumer” frustrations with it.
Honestly, I’m not.
But I would like to ask a question as a non Flash developer.
Looking at the UFC site, I see nothing in said feature section that would require Flash so why not build it for more universal compatibility? Why no graceful HTML fallback either?
It often seems as though the approach for some Flash developers is “if you have a hammer, everything is a nail”
There are a surprising number of Flash developers that don’t have any HTML/CSS/Javascript skills. For them, all they have is a hammer, so everything has to be a nail.
There are also a lot of clients that demand things be in Flash, because they heard Flash is cool, regardless of whether that makes a lick of sense or not. I’ve not too proud to admit I’ve built sites like that.
Which begs the obvious question; have clients started asking for sites to NOT contain Flash so as to be compatible?
There are pros and cons to using any technology.
Flash developers don’t call the shots. A director of technology will work with the clients to determine a technology solution. I have seen a few Flash developers that only know Flash. Given all that it does, I think that can be enough. Video, animation, application architecture, and design patterns, takes a lot of time to learn and keep up with.
Personally, I don’t feel comfortable only knowing one technology. I was comfortable with HTML, JavaScript, and CSS long before I was good with Flash. Overspecialization is risky in any field of work.
So the UFC site has multiple sections that play video. Paging through the sections can be achieved without Flash, but Flash is the most prevalent way video is distributed on the Web. So if we forget about mobile for a second then it makes the most sense to use Flash. Flash has about a 98% penetration rate on the Web so there is no need to have a back up.
So Flash was late to address mobile. But, the newly released 10.1 player resolves this issue. It works beautifully on Android and could work on the iPhone/iPad if Apple allowed it.
The ones with mobile strategies probably are, but that’s still a minority of clients.
I expect it’s also heavily weighed towards very large clients with the awareness and money to have mobile campaigns.
Personally, I recommend every site be mobile accessible at the minimum, with having a separate mobile style sheet being preferred.